Tara,
I fully understand where Ken is coming from. Adam a friend with me in Calgary here is the same as Ken,
just does not see it, thinks it's all over in this life time, the basic Protestant idea.
Well I'll take a look at what Ken H. says but I may just have to refer him to my study called
"The Great White Throne Judgment" and "Called and Chosen - When?"
There are some basic Scriptures that people like Ken and Adam just ignore or cannot put it together.
Will take a look at what Ken gives, and answer it.
Keith
Keith-
This is a distraction from what I NEED to be working on, plus I must get more time with the boys in the books,
because the last few days I've not done much with that, but our brother Ken Hoeck (he used to do the E-Clipz,
if you remember I sometimes forwarded them, and he has Truth on the Web Ministries--that's what he calls his website),
and he's on my Facebook. ANYWAY, I do like Ken, but there are things on which we don't agree. He's never
ugly-acting, but he has challenged me to write a study article proving that the 8th Day feast symbolizes what we
believe it does, WITH answering each of HIS scriptures that he has given me. Some of them are simple.
The big thing is I just do not have time right now, and I have something SO MUCH BIGGER on my mind right now,
what I have ahead of me...
Peace to you,
Tara
Sister, I do understand the REASONING and SENTIMENT...I just was hoping to see it in SCRIPTURES rather than
CONJECTURE? (I speak with all due respect of course)
Without ANY added thoughts or conjecture can you show me the verses that describe the scenario you have just painted?
I really would love it if you could show me that ... I ask many and they all say what you said...but no one has yet been able
to show the PLAIN TRUTH from scriptures. Please take time to try?
MY ANSWER:
KEN you need to go to my website keithhunt.com and find the studies called "The Great White Throne Judgment"
and "Called and Chosen - When"
KEN:
I also did not see where you placed those verses I mentioned?
Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into ALL the world, and preach the gospel to EVERY creature.
He that BELIEVETH and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth NOT shall be DAMNED.
MY ANSWER:
This is an overall command, we are to go out, not stop, preach. Those that are called have to move on to being chosen -
they have a decision to make. If they know the truth and reject it they are in deep trouble - second death. BUT what you
miss is reading ALL the Gospels and all the words of Christ. You have missed where Jesus stated "You shall not have
gone over all the cities of Israel till the Son of man comes." Not EVERY PERSON ***EVER*** HAS HAD THE
GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM! Many yesterday, ages ago, and even today, have never heard the Bible, never
known Jesus existed, never know the gospel. All dedicated Muslim people will not even open the Bible or hear it.
They will refuse to be "preached to" - then you have ALL that have lived and died in past ages who never knew
about Christ, the Bible or salvation. Then you have babies, and young children died before the gospel could be
preached to them. And etc. and etc.
KEN:
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,
and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and NARROW is the way, which leadeth unto life,
and FEW there be that find it.
MY ANSWER:
Jesus was being asked if many are saved. It is written by Peter that God is not wanting any to perish but all to come
to repentance. But all have never come close to being even CALLED - Jesus was obviously, when you take the whole
Bible and plan of God, referring to the FIRST resurrection - remember all the verses about when He comes ....
MANY will say we did this and that in your name, etc. but He will say He never knew them, and depart from me
you that work unrighteousness. Not many relatively speaking will be in the FIRST resurrection. But billions of people
down through time have NEVER heard the Gospel or as Peter said the ONLY name whereby you can be saved.
You cannot come into God's Kingdom ANY OTHER WAY but through Christ - Jesus Himself made that fact very
clear in the Gospels - he was the way, the truth and the life.
Billions have lived never knowning about Christ.
KEN:
Can you tell me where these fit in that plan? (if you can first show the plan as clear as these verses are with scripture)
And also please fit these others (just a few to make the point)?
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
resurrection of damnation.
MY ANSWER:
The Greek is "judgment" NOT damnation - this verse actually PROVES the point - ALL will be resurrected.
The first resurrection is for saints of all ages from Adam to the second coming of Christ. The second resurrection -
Rev.20 - is for BILLIONS who never had the gospel preached to them or knew about Christ the only way to salvation.
KEN:
1 Peter 4:17-18 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall
the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous SCARCELY be saved, where shall the
UNGODLY and the SINNER appear?
MY ANSWER:
Yes, if you REJECT salvation WHEN you are CALLED to know about the gospel and Christ, you are in deep trouble -
Heb.10. Salvation in this age of Satan is a fight to the end, an endurance, that you loose not your crown as Paul put it.
And in this Satan age if the ungoldy and sinners being CALLED REJECT salvation - they are in deep trouble!
KEN:
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall NOT see life;
but the wrath of God ABIDETH on him.
MY ANSWER:
But to believe on the Son you have to have the gospel preached to you. Billions have lived and died from Adam
that never had thew gospel preached to them, and they NEVER knew about Jesus, the ONLY name whereby
you can be saved. When you are called, given the truth, had the blindness taken away from your mind, you have
a choice to make - make the wrong choice and in are in for the wrath of God.
KEN:
Hebrews 9:27-28 And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the JUDGMENT: So Christ was once
offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin
unto salvation.
MY ANSWER:
It says JUDGMENT and that judgment takes two forms - if the gospel is preached to you, if you are called to have blindness
removed, you have a choice to make. When you die then judgment on that choice will be made. You either get eternal life
or the second death. Now judgment number two is Rev.20 and the second resurrection. If you have lived and died BUT
never had the gospel preached to you or knew about Jesus the only name under heaven whereby you can be saved -
then you have a judgment in the second resurrection - you will have the books (Greek is "biblos" - we get Bible from this
word) and the book of LIFE opened to you - you will have judgment on what you now will do with the truth, blindness removed,
gospel preached to you, knowing about Jesus, the ONLY way to salvation.
Paul's emphasis in this verse is those who have known the truth, been given salvation, have died, but look to Him for His
coming when they will be resurrected to life eternal.
KEN:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with
his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that KNOW NOT GOD, and that obey not the gospel of our
Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from
the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe
(because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
MY ANSWER:
First of all you cannot argue for ALL in past ages will be destroyed, for this verse is speaking about the coming of Christ
and those who are living and using fire on them.
It is a prophecy as like dozens of others in the OT and NT that speak of the same thing. People will be put to death
by Christ at His coming, ones who refuse to know him and NOTICE IT .... OBEY NOT the gospel....so they have
had the gospel preached to them, they have refused to REPENT. They have been CALLED, they have been shown
the way to salvation, but REFUSE to obey. THEY KNOW BETTER!!! But will not DO will NOT OBEY! BUT
BILLIONS DOWN THROUGH TIME have NOT had the gospel, they never had a chance to KNOW THE LORD,
or to KNOW WHAT TO OBEY!! This verse cannot be used to contradict DOZENS of other verses in the Bible
that reveal the plan of God for salvation to be given to EVERYONE who has ever lived.
KEN:
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in THEM THAT PERISH; because they
RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE of the truth, that they MIGHT BE SAVED. And for THIS cause God shall send them
strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be DAMNED who believed NOT the truth, but
had pleasure in unrighteousness.
MY ANSWER:
Again...they KNOW THE TRUTH. To know truth you have to know what truth is. You have to be given the gospel,
you have to be called, you have to know all about Jesus Christ the only name under heaven whereby you can be saved.
People who are called and have blindness removed and WILL NOT love thew truth, but will reject it, will not DO what
they need to do to be saved, THOSE PEOPLE are damned! But billions down through the ages have never rejected
truth because THE TRUTH was not given to them. They lived and died BLINDED - they were never CALLED -
God just did not deal with them in any manner. They never had the gospel preached to them, or ever heard about Jesus Christ.
KEN:
Romans 2:12-16 For as many as have sinned WITHOUT LAW shall ALSO PERISH WITHOUT LAW: and as many as
have SINNED in the law shall be JUDGED by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers
of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the
law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their
conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day
when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
MY ANSWER:
You mistake "perish" for "eternal destruction" Paul does not say that. You and others read into it words and meaning
that Paul never meant.
Paul was actually putting for the truth of all this. Those who sin WITHOUT KNOWING THE LAW shall also just die
without knowing the law - they were never called, never knew the Bible, never knew about Jesus Christ. Paul is actually
giving a stern WARNING TO his readers, who did know the law. He was telling them that those who did not know the
law would just die without ANY JUDGMENT by the law. BUT he says to his readers YOU who DO know THE LAW...
man/womwn you are in a very precarious position FOR YOU will be JUDGED by the LAW that YOU know. The others
who do not know the law will die without knowing it, hence they will not be judged by the law, their salvation is for a
future time, the second resurrection of Rev.20.
KEN:
Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL MEN EVERY WHERE TO REPENT:"
(and this was told to heathen idolaters!)
MY ANSWER:
This is a verse of "general statement" - Now YOU Ken need to go and study the study on my website called "A Key to
Bible understanding - General Statement"
God shouts out to everyman to repent to those who are CALLED, having the blindness removed, having the gospel
preached to them, knowing the only name under heaven whereby you can be saved. Now BILLIONS before this time
and after this time, have NEVER heard those words from God, that they should repent. Billions have lived and never
read those words in Acts 17:30. Billions have never even known the true God, they were born on societies that
ONLY HAD false gods or wood or stone or the sun or moon to worship etc. They've NEVER heard these words
from the true God, never read the Bible, never even seen a Bible, never had a preacher visit them to tell them these words.
This cannot be used to contradict all verses of truth on the plan of salvation for ALL who have ever lived.
KEN:
As I said, these are a FEW...I do have others that are supportive.
MY ANSWER:
You think you have others, but they all COME UNDER what I given you as the answer to the ones you have presented.
What you need to do is study the studies I've told you about on my website. Get the simple truth that there is ONLY ONE
way to salvation for ANYONE who has ever lived.
KEN:
Wouldn't it be a good article if you could show what you currently believe- without added human reasoning or supposition
but only straight scripture? And you could harmoniously fit in the scriptures I have cited to support that? (no need to
rush an answer ...I can wait ... it will take time to find those scriptures and a reply would be truly empty without them).
MY ANSWER:
IT's all been done for you on my website. Tara does not have the time to re-state what I've already written for you and
others like you on this topic.
KEN:
Afterall, we should be able to take God at HIS WORD and not add and not worry about details that we do not know
or understand until He reveal them plainly in the Kingdom to come.
MY ANSWER:
Oh but they ARE REVEALED indeed very much so. God ALREADY WANTS you to understand the subject.
It's on my website in detail. Keith Hunt
KEN:
Thank you & God's blessings to prove all things.
Love to you in Christ Jesus, Ken
MY ANSWER WITH MORE:
As we read the Bible from the start of Genesis we need to take note of certain VERY IMPORTANT verses
concerning SALVATION.
We find THREE verses that hit you between the eyes if you see them (a lot of people read right over them
and miss them entirely).
Verse number one: "Moreover your little ones, which you said should be a prey, and your children,
which in that day had NO KNOWLEDGE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL, they shall go in thither...." (Deut.1:39).
Mark it, with a yellow marker! This is a simple verse, why even a child can understand it. It is easy to read,
says what it means and means what it says. There is a period in the life of a child when GOD says they do
NOT know evil from good. They have no knowledge of salvation, what is right or wrong. They do not know
the ONLY way to be saved, as Peter was inspired to tell us in the NT, the only name under heaven by which
you can be saved - Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself said NO ONE comes to the Father but through Him. He said
He was the way, the truth and the LIFE. He said He was the door to the sheep fold. Reading the words of
Christ Himself in the Gospels it is plain and clear to see their is NO SALVATION but through HIM! There is a
period in a child's life when they do not cannot KNOW Jesus and the way to eternal life. We should all know
that a one year old, nay a two year old, nay a three year old, does NOT have the mental ability to know Jesus
and the way to salvation. You can stand and preach the Gospel to them and it will make no sense to them in a
deep personal way where they will know good from evil and how they should think and live and have Jesus as
personal Savior, and know how to live the life of servicve and obediance to the word of God. Jesus taught that
we are to live by every word that comes from the mouth of God (Mat.4:4) - children of 2 and 3 cannot even read
the word of God, and if you read it to them 99.9% is going to go in one ear and out the other.
If children DIE or are KILLED at this age, they are neither saved nor lost!! If you say they are saved you have
NO Bible authority for such a teaching, not when it is clear that Jesus is the only name given whereby you can be
saved.
It you say they are damned to hell, you have no authority for that idea either. And if that is your theology, I and
millions of people want nothing to do with such theology or such a God as you would teach with such a mad way of doing
things.
Before we go further, we need to understand that there has ALWAYS BEEN ONLY ONE WAY TO SALVATION -
both in the Old Testament and the New Testament - saved by GRACE through FAITH in the Messiah Savior.
Those in the Old Testament who were called to salvation KNEW about the coming Messiah to pay for their sins -
they looked TOWARDS THE CROSS. Those in the New Testament also knew about the Messiah Savior and they
looked BACK TO THE CROSS! We need to get this straight, if we do not, we will have a mixed up theology that
will lead to all kinds of crazy and stupid ideas, as well as being totally false! It is just that simple - not KNOWING
and UNDERSTANDING and being TAUGHT either directly by God, or His word, or by a teacher set to teach you
about God and His word and the Savior, there is NO SALVATION! And if God never ALLOWS you contact with
such truth, or to live to an age where you can understand that truth - you are neither saved nor lost. It is written by
Peter God does not want anyone to perish but ALL to come to REPENTANCE and be saved (2 Peter 3:9).
And it is plain as a sunny day without clouds, that to come to repentance you must know about the Gospel and Jesus,
and be of an AGE to understand sin - right from wrong - and be able to repent of your sins and accept Jesus
as your personal Savior.
God tells us children at a certain age CANNOT KNOW GOOD FROM EVIL - CANNOT KNOW SIN FROM
RIGHTEOUSNESS - Hence during a certain age CANNOT obtain salvation. If they die before they are old enough
to understand salvation that has been ALLOWED to happen by God, and so He is responsible for them not knowing
the way of salvation before they died. Will they just be gone FOREVER - disappear into thin air forever? No! my
studies I've mentioned PROVE they will be resurrected in the White Throne Judgment period (Rev.20) to have the
Bible and book of life opened to them and so they can be judged according to their works as to what they do with
that knowledge when they are old enough to understand that knowledge and make a choice as to which way they
will decide to live.
Next verse: "God said to Moses, 'O that there was such a heart in them, that they would fear Me, and KEEP My
commandments always...." (Deut.5:29).
Mark this verse also with a yellow marker. There was NO HEART in the Israelites as a whole to serve God.
You can put this with Number 11 and see how God did give a heart and His Holy Spirit to SOME in Israel,
BUT MOST had no such heart and had no Spirit of God. Now read Romans 8 and you will see the Spirit of God
you have to have in order to be saved - read from verse 9 forward. Simple is it not. You just have to read it
and believe it - if you do not have the Spirit of Christ you do not belong to Him, you are not saved. But are
you then LOST?
That brings us to the third verse: "Yet the LORD HAS NOT GIVEN you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see,
and ears to hear, UNTO THIS DAY." (Deut.29:4).
Mark it with a yellow marker! The LORD had NOT GIVEN - now you need to read Romans 11:7-10! Do you see it,
can your eyes see it. It was God who had given them BLINDNESS to Israel, but for the election of grace, as you read
all the context. Then blindness is only UNTIL....UNTIL...verse 25 and then all Israel will be saved! There it is,
just simple to read. God for some DELIBERATELY GIVES SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS .... until. There is an until.
Some DIE in spiritual BLINDNESS!! They never in this lifetime have a chance for salvation!!
But God does not want any to perish but ALL to come to repentance - so Peter was inspired to tell us. And so we
have Revelation 20 and the Great White Throne Judgment.
And now you need to study SLOWLY , marking all the verses I present, and get the truth on the PLAN of Salvation
that the Eternal has for EVERY SINGLE SOULD THAT HAD EVER LIVED OR WILL LIVE, with the study called
"The Great White Throne Judgment" Then you need to study my study called "Called and Chosen - When"
This is BASIC TRUTH - with basic simple truth you can then understand the verses you have presented for me to answer.
For they must be understood within the CONTEXT of this BASIC TRUTH, AND THE FIRST AND SECOND RESURECTION. Those who
reject salvation will be in a THIRD resurrection to be cast into the lake of fire and be eternally destroyed
There is a full in-depth study on this website about THREE RESURRECTION.
Keith Hunt
