MORE QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ON SATAN'S FATE
Q.
I'm ALL about context. I say the same thing to others ... and not
just in one verse but within the bible as a whole. Did I not use
context when you said that Jude was saying that the angels were
wandering stars to mean that they might roam in the darkness of
the universe, when in fact the context teaches that he was
talking of false teachers?
A.
I said Jude was given a number of examples what you can compare
false minister to; one was wandering stars in darkness, which
could mean things like meteorites that are good for nothing and
some do cause serious damage. Then again that is only one
understanding; the other is "stars = angels" and so this could be
relating to fallen angels banished from God's family to wander
the blackness of daskness forever, which then would be for them
the "torment for the ages of the ages" - Rev.20:10.
Q.
You said the word "from" has a huge meaning, but as I said before
there is no word "from" in the Hebrew. It and the word "the" are
both attached to the word that was translated "midst," which can
also mean "among" or "in."
A.
J.P.Green Sr. in his Hebrew/English Interlinear does write "from
among" - #8432 in Strong's Concordance, but a slight got or
title or mark, well whatever ... Strong does give also "sever"
"out (of), so other verses in the Bible would have to "clinch"
the correct way to understand this verse in Ezekiel. And so we
are left with verses like Rev.20:10 - "tormented for the ages of
the ages." and this comes way after Ezekiel. I believe Revelation
20:10 is the clincher.
Now here are various well known translations of this Ezekiel
passage:
The full impact of Green's translation is in the PAST tense,
already done: "...and you sinned, So I cast you" - "and I
destroyed you profaned from the height of God, and I destroyed
you O cherub covering, from among the stones of fire...." Notice
the past tense Green uses "I cast you" "and I destroyed you" -
something already done. There is a certain part of heaven Satan
no longer has access to, but he's still very much alive.
The Holy Bible from ancient Eastern Manuscripts by Lamsa:
...with iniquity you have sinned; therefore I will cast you from
the mountain of God; and I will destroy you, o sheltering cherub,
from the midst of the stones of fire."
The Holy Bible 1611 KJV:
"...and thou has sinned: therefore I will cast thee as prophane
out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering
Cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."
The New American Standard Bible:
...And you have sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane
from the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you O covering
cherub From the midst of the stones of fire."
Did you again notice the "past" tense was used, as that this has
already been done, and Satan is still alive.
Farrar Fenton likewise gives the same thought:
"Until in yourself the corruption was formed....So I flung you
out from the mountain of godhood. And sent your guardian Spirit
from among the bright gems..."
It was an action that has already taken place, but Satan is still
very much alive.
Amplifies Version:
"...you were filled with lawlessness and violence, and you
sinned; therefore I cast you out as a profane thing from the
mountain of God and the guarding cherub drove you out from the
midst of the stones of fire.
Ah, there must be enough evidence in the way the Hebrew is that
the Amplified scholars and others rendered it as they did - still
past tense.
The Complete Jewish Bible by david Stern:
"You became filled with violence; and in this way you sinned.
Therefore I have thrown you out, defiled, from the mountain of
God; I have destroyed you, protecting 'keruv' from among the
stones of fire."
Again another scholar of Hebrew puts it in the past tense,
already done, and the Devil still lives on.
NIV translates:
"...you were filled with violence and you sinned. So I drove you
disgraced from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian
cherub, from among the fiery stones."
Once more past tense they render it, already done, but Satan
lives on.
The New Living Translation:
"...evil was found in you.... and you sinned. So I banished you
from the mountain of God. I expelled you., o mighty guardian,
from your place among the stones of fire."
Once more a past tense translation, and the Devil lives on.
Tanakh - Jewish OT Bible:
"You were filled with lawlessness and you sinned. So I have
struck you down from the mountain of God, and I have destroyed
you, o shielding cherub, from among the stones of fire."
Another past action, God already has done it, Satan still lives
on.
Interesting translation from the LXX (Septuagint) - Greek OT:
"...filled thy storehouse with iniquity, and hast sinned;
therefore thou hast been cast down wounded from the mount of God,
and the cherub has brought thee out of the midst of the stones of
fire."
Still rendered in the Greek in the PAST tense, already done, but
Satan lives on.
The New KJV:
And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of
the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from
the midst of the fiery stones."
Past tense given again, its already been done - but the Devil
lives on.
It would surely seem from the above scholars that the correct
translation is in the PAST tense, something God has already done!
Now when Satan appeared before God in the book of Job, he was no
doubt appearing before the SECOND MEMBER of the Godhead, the One
who became Jesus Christ, and their meeting would not have been in
the very throne room of God the Father, the stones of fire, as
Satan had (when it was) been cast out of that very intimate close
presence with the God we now call the Father.
It would seem from the Hebrew the majority of scholars are in
agreement this should be translated as the PAST tense, an act
already done, and has nothing to do with the future beyond us.
Q.
There is no debate about the torment. I don't ignore that fact at
all. It also says wicked men will be tormented. Just because
someone says something about torment doesn't mean there's no end
to it.
A.
But Revelation clearly says Satan's torment will be day and night
for the ages of the ages, human torment in the second death is
but for a very short time.
Q.
I'm not saying I'm dead-set in whether Satan and his angels are
completely destroyed. For now, though, it does seem to me that is
how it will be. The arguments you are using are not very
convincing to me.
A.
Of course we all have to work our way through all this. I think
the passages are quite clear to me that Satan will NOT be
destroyed.
Q.
As far as darkness forever, it also says the same thing of wicked
humans.
A.
The wicked humans are "likened" to them, they are not them, nor
does it apply to them. It is the stars that go in darkness
forever; the false prophets are "useless" just as those stars are
useless wandering in blackness forever.
No they are like certain things, they are not the things, only
like certain things. The "star" is just one thing they are like
.... useless things that wander around in darkness (the false
prophets being in spiritual darkness, and bring wandering useless
theology. I'm sure you've met those who wander from one church
group to another, never it seems finding the truth, or as the
proverb goes, "They stumble over truth and pick themselves up and
walk on as if nothing had happened."
Q.
What about Jude 1:6 which says: And the angels which kept not
their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath
reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment
of the great day.
Those angels are LOCKED in chains in DARKNESS until their final
judgment. Now, would it make sense that their judgement is less
than what they are experiencing now? They are locked in darkness
and cannot go anywhere. Will their judgement be less where they
can be in darkness and yet not be locked in chains? That just
doesn't make sense to me.
A.
It is talking about being locked in spiritual chains of darkness.
They decided to rebel against God, and so God has handed them
over to the darkness of mind that they chose themselves. But
being so, that does not mean they have no "influence" and even
strong power over human kind, strong enough to often "possess"
people of all ages. Yes their punishment in darkness is enough,
they need no chains, for God will simply say the word and it will
be done - the word "you stay in darkness of the universe and away
from all creates and all of my family." God has all power and
they cannot break that power once the word has gone worth from
the Father's lips.
They are locked in spiritual chains of darkness. Does not say
they cannot move from earth, in fact before the Tribulation (Rev.
12) they do go to fight God's angels and are cast back down.
You are still missing what I've said about when there is no more
sin, when Satan and the demons have nothing they can influence or
possess, believe me knowing their fallen nature, they will be
most tormented when they can not keep bringing in sin through
humans. If they are to wander through the darkness of space, well
that will be some kind of hell for them, and they probably
deserve such a life for eternity, they may well have had billions
of years sinning and rebelling against God. I will be open and
frank. I have no sympathy for the Devil and the demons. My
judgment would be they VERY WELL DESERVE to live for the ages of
the ages in mental torment, away from God and His family. We
probably do not know the half as they say, as to all the sin and
damage (even in the physical universe), that Satan and the demons
have done for perhaps BILLIONS of years. This might seem hard
nosed, but God is justice. To think this greatest of all sinners
could get way with all he has done, by just being burnt up in
some lake of fire ..... no I do not see that as justice for him
and the demons. Man's puny little life of sin (a millionth of a
second compared to Satan), does only deserve to be destroyed, but
Satan, he deserves a much longer punishment, "for the ages of the
ages."
Q.
And why would God create a creature and then let it live in
misery forever, when it asked not to be created? Humans who
choose evil--opposite of God's way--are not given a spiritual
body so that they can go around in misery forever. Why would God
not destroy the angels, who also hated his way. Why would he keep
someone around to live without end in misery?
A
They were created in a different zone of life. Satan was a
covering cherub right over the throne of God, the angels no doubt
had access to God's heaven, they saw Him, they were part of a
world that needed no faith that He existed, they knew He existed.
They were privileged in ways most of us are not. Yet they were
created with free agency, and seeing all they could see and do,
they chose to rebel against the Perfect One of the universe.
Yes, they deserve a MUCH LARGER punishment than humans do. I for
one will not feel sorry for them being out in darkness with no
person or animal they can possess or influence, for the ages of
the ages. It could well be they rebelled against God millions and
perhaps billions of years ago. What they have done, the harm,
destruction, and sin, in the universe, we only have a faint
glimpse of at this present time. God is a God of not only mercy
but justice. He is perfect, and if He has decided NO created
angel or cherub will ever die, then I'm confident that perfect
justice will be handed out on Satan and the fallen angels, and if
that justice is for the Devil to be tormented for the ages of the
ages, then so be it. God is God and He will deal out justice that
is perfect. We may now only look through a glass darkly but one
day we shall know even as we are known.
Q.
IF they are indeed tormented without end, I believe it is in the
lake of fire, because that is where he was thrown to be
tormented. I don't believe he leaves it. Rev. 14:10-11 says
basically the same thing about people who go against God's way.
A.
The problem is the lake of fire is to burn up the earth as
Peter was inspired to tell us in his epistle, and then a new
earth to come. The fire will not continue for eternity. Spirit
cannot be effected by physical fire, unless God says it will
effect them also, but we have no verse that tells us it will
effect them as burning them up and so not existing any more. Yet
we do have Rev.20:10 that plainly says he's tormented to the ages
of the ages.
TYPOLOGY OF THE TWO
GOATS ON THE FEAST
OF ATONEMENT
The very typology of the goat with all sins confessed on its
head and then it's release into the wilderness, to go away, live,
but "be gone" - be sent out of that human world. That typology
fits perfectly into Satan NOT being destroyed, but sent away,
from human life with all the sins of human life on its head.
The two goats DO NOT represent the Lord Jesus. There would have
been no need to cast lots on two perfect goats, if they BOTH were
to represent Christ. The lots were cast so ONE could represent
Christ and the other, the goat that was sent away into the
wilderness - representing Satan the Devil - sent away carrying
the sins of all the people. Satan was the author of sin, and it
is written he will be tormented for the ages of the ages.
Keith Hunt
March 2010
