THE FATE OF SATAN #4
ORIGIN OF HELL-FIRE
Q.
As far as the Ezekiel text being in the past tense or not, I'm
not sure. I'd already looked at several translations parallel at
bible.cc and so already saw that for myself. However, why are you
now arguing that it's a past thing, when before you argued that
it has not happened yet, because in Job Satan appeared before
God? You are arguing heavily for Satan not being destroyed for
good, but you are arguing two totally different things concerning
this same passage of scripture, just to prove your point. You
tried proving it before with the previous argument, and now
you're saying it says something different to prove it.
A.
Good question, and it bring up an important point of always
"growing in grace and knowledge."
I'm not doing so much as a contradiction with myself, but an
"alteration" of teaching. For decades I used my old KJV (which I
still do, as it is all marked up etc.), and in the old KJV it is
presented in the "future" tense. The challenge of studying this
passage again .... well I found out that most, if not all of my
12 or so Bible translations in my personal library, puts it in
the "past" tense, AS DOES the NEW KJV. The NKJV has: "There I
cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God, and I
destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery
stones."
I recommend everyone have the NKJV, for one reason (of many) they
have CORRECTED past errors!
When Ezekiel was inspired to write his book, God is telling us
here, about the covering cherub, that it was ALREADY a PAST MOVE
on God's part, He had already (by the time anyone would read the
book of Ezekiel) CAST Satan out from His throne, from the stones
of fire. Now what this means in conjunction with the what is
written in the book of Job is this: The position that the
covering cherub had, over the very throne of God, was taken from
him, that covering beautiful cherub, became the Devil. Satan,
until his rebellion, had access to God's throne, that few created
beings would have. He was one of the "inter circle" beings shall
we say, that could go directly to God's throne. Upon his
rebellion and his march up to heaven from earth (Isaiah 14) with
angels that had become demons, and the war that ensued
(Revelation 12 and remember Jesus saying, "I saw Satan fall from
heaven" - the special position of Ezekiel 28 was taken away. I
believe Satan in the beginning of the book of Job, in going to
heaven, it was not the very throne room of God the Father. I
believe Satan talked to God in the form of the SECOND member of
the Godhead - the one that became the Jesus Christ of the NT. I
believe the Bible makes it clear that God the Father cannot have
evil in His presence; I think one of the main reasons why the
Father will not come to earth until AFTER the 1,000 years, is
that is when sin and death is totally gone from the equation.
We must always be growing in grace and knowledge, always read to
admit mistakes of understanding. We should not dislike new truth
or being corrected. I'm glad the "experts" on Hebrew and Greek
are willing to correct errors, the text in Ezekiel, from the old
KJV to the NewKJV corrects errors they found; good for them, for
that shows their heart is right in revisiting the Hebrew and
Greek MSS.
Hence we must also be willing to see the errors and teach what
new light is given to us.
Q.
Satan cannot be tormented "day and night" for eternity after the
new heavens and earth, because there will not be any "night" then
(Rev. 22:5). So, maybe it is how I said, that he will be
tormented day and night until the age of ages.
A.
The Bible is written in many different ways, not understanding or
admitting those ways, will real people into many wrong ideas,
some I've seen over the past decades, have been way out in planet
Pluto orbit. The well known fellow E.W. Bullinger knew very well
that the Bible contained many "figures of speech" and other types
of language types that we today still use in our telling of
things. He was so impressed with this fact in the writing of the
Bible that he wrote a 1,000 page book called "Figures of Speech
in the Bible." I have it in my personal library.
These different types of speech are given fancy names or
categories. One type of Bible speech is a "double emphasis" talk.
I'll come back to that in a moment.
First, a fact of the Bible is that it often speaks from
the "human point of view - so we have "when the sun went down"
and the like. Of course technically the sun does not go down as
such, but the turning of our earth makes it look like the sun
goes down in the West. So things as we seem to encounter them are
used in the Bible, and the writer throws away the "technical"
stuff - this is pretty common use of language that we may use
today as we write or speak. Now, back to "double emphasis" -
along with "as we see it today" language; yes the two types of
speech can be used together. this is what is happening here in
Revelation 20:10. First, John is inspired to use "as the way we
would count it in the present" - so he writes "tormented day and
night." We are still in the present time. We are not yet in the
future time of when there will be no need of the sun because as
Rev. 21 and 22 says, God the Father and Christ are the light -
we're not in that time space yet. We are still in the present,
with day and night. We may talk among ourselves today using
similar language to another human person, to get a point across,
that "this or that" will go on .... "day and night until the cows
come home." Ah, see how I used two types of figures of speech in
one phrase. So human language has developed down through the
millenniums.
Then, John enters the "double emphasis" of types of speech, he
goes on to say, "until the ages of the ages."
So in one phrase we have TWO figures of speech! One is more the
everyday now talk, of day and night, to tell us "continual"
length. We could say to a very good friend, "You can count on me,
day and night." And our friend knows what we are meaning by that
figure of speech - until death do us part - hummm, another
figure of speech.
Then John, really wants to nail it down (wow ... another figure
of speech) for us, and says, "until the ages of the ages."
I've gone over that phrase as used in the book of Revelation
already.
I see here in Revelation 20:10 no way around getting around that
God wants us to know Satan ain't going to get off so lightly
(yep, another figure of speech), as being chained up for 1,000
years, and then allowed to come out of the bottomless pit, bring
horrid deception again for a short time, and then only get
destroyed in some fire. I see no justice in that penalty for him,
for what he's done on earth, and in the universe. I will have
more to say about that later.
Q.
As far as your comment about humans being "likened" to them (the
angels?), you've lost me. The bible clearly says that the wicked
humans will be cast out into outer darkness. That is what our
Lord said. How can you say it doesn't apply to them, when it's
whom the Lord was speaking about. He didn't even mention the
angels then.
A.
All I'm saying is that in Jude, you have false deceptive persons
that yes, as you've said Jesus said, will be cast out into outer
darkness, which by the rest of the Bible, we know Jesus meant
they will suffer the second death; being destroyed in the lake of
fire (end of Rev.20), and will not continue to live in any way.
The connection in Jude with "wandering stars" is the connection
of evil, sin, wickedness, deception. That is the connection of
"wandering stars" and false teachers. They both are false and
evil. Now, that connection, as I've already said, is IF
"wandering stars" is meaning "angels" (as interpreted by Rev.1)-
and in this case "fallen angels." I've said that this is only one
POSSIBLE explanation of Jude 13.
Q.
You said the angels are not locked in chains of darkness, but
they can roam about. SOME may be roaming about, but there were
certain ones who are locked in the abyss for certain sins they
did. They cannot go anywhere, until the angel with the key
unlocks them during the tribulation (Rev.9:1).
A.
Any "type" or "analogy" can be used at any one time, for any
number of teachings, to get a point across to our minds. Rev.9:1
from the context has nothing to do specifically with any demons.
The "bottomless pit" certainly in the book of Revelation is only
used for "evil" or anything that is not good for us. Here in
chapter 9:1 it is used for the FIFTH trumpet, the 6th trumpet
coming in verse 13. The 5th trumpet will be the Resurrected Holy
Roman Empire to come in the last days and make great destruction
on this earth. In verse 11 we see the king over them is the king
of the bottomless pit (standing for evil, sin, destruction) -
namely Satan the Devil. But technically, at least here in
Revelation, it says nothing about demons being in, or coming out
of the bottomless pit. I will say, that it is quite possible,
SOME demons are under some "retrain" as otherwise all hell would
have broken loose from the creation of mankind. The demons do a
mighty horrible work as it is with humans down through the
millenniums, I would hate to see what they would do if some are
not restrained.
Q.
So, yes, those angels are locked up right now for the sins they
committed. The evil spirits that Jesus sent into pigs begged him
not to send them to the abyss. So, some are there; some are not.
It's the same place where Satan will be locked up for one
thousand years during the reign of the children of God.
A.
Certainly, the "bottomless pit" phrase is used for the chaining
up of Satan at the beginning of the 1,000 years (Rev.20). And as
stated I have no trouble with SOME demons in that restrained pit,
until maybe the very last 42 months of this age, when indeed all
hell will break loose on this earth, as we have never experienced
it before, or ever will again. And just saying that, and trying
to think about it, my mind hits a brick wall (another figure of
speech) - I cannot imagine what it will be like.
Q.
You said the lake of fire burns up the earth, but the beast and
false prophet are thrown into it before the thousand-year reign
of Christ and the saints on this physical earth. It's not
burning up the earth then.
A.
Okay. I need to take some time to put it all chronologically.
Let's begin with the so-called "hell fire" that preachers have
preached about for hundreds of years, trying to scare the pants
off people (another figure of speech - we sure have many of
them).
Where all this talk about "hell-fire" comes from is the "gehenna
fire" of the New Testament. Yes the NT speaks, Jesus spoke about,
a "gehenna fire" that would indeed destroy people!
Here is what the "Pictorial Encyclopeda of the Bible" says about
"gehenna":
Quote:
GEHENNA (gihena) (lit., "valley of Hinnom, Eng.VSS hell") In the
NT the final place of punishment of the ungodly. The word de-
rives from the Heb. (which they give - Keith Hunt) the Valley of
Hinnom, or more fully, the Valley of the son(s) of Hinnom,
situated to the S or SW of Jerusalem, usually identified with the
Wadi-er-Rababi. It is first referred to in Joshua 15:8 and 18:16
as marking the boundary between the inheritance of the tribes of
Judah and Benjamin. (In recent times, until the Arab-Israeli war
in June 1967, it was divided in two by the border between Israel
and Jordan.) During the reigns of Ahaz and Manasseh, at Topheth
(prob. lit. "fire-place") in the Valley of Hinnom, human
sacrifices were offered to the heathen god Molech (Molech; 2
Chron 28:3; 33:6). Josiah in his reforms "defiled" Topheth and
thus prevented any further use of the valley for that purpose (2
Kings 23:10). Jeremiah (7:30-33) announces that the name of the
valley will be changed to the "Valley of Slaughter" because when
the Lord judged Judah for her sins, the number of dead would be
so great that they would be thrown into the valley to lie there
without burial. ***In later times the valley seems to have been
used for burning refuse, and also the bodies of criminals.***
From about the 2nd cent. B.C., the Valley of Hinnom came to be
thought of as the place of final punishment for the enemies of
God. This arose either from the earlier associations or from
Jeremiah's prophecy or from the later practice just referred to.
The Book of Enoch is the earliest witness to this (but cf. even
in the OT itself, Isaiah 30:33; 66:24). In later thought, Gehenna
was thought of as the eschatological fire of hell, still prob.
considered as a place (esp. in Rabbinic thought), but now no
longer locally outside Jerusalem. The term is used in the NT in
this sense. J. Jeremias stresses the sharp distinction in the NT
(as in pre-NT Judaism) between Hades and Gehenna-Hades receiving
the ungodly only for the intervening period between death and
resurrection, Gehenna being their place of punishment after the
last judgment. Apart from James 3:6, where the tongue, compared
to a fire that sets on fire the whole cycle of nature, is said to
be itself set on fire by Gehenna, the remaining eleven
occurrences are all in the synoptic gospels.
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus warned that even mental or
verbal infringements of the commandments render one liable to Ge-
henna (Matt 5:20), and He said: "If your right eye causes you to
sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose
one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into
hell" (Matt 5:29f.). He also held out the threat of Gehenna to
any who "causes one of these little ones who believe in me to
sin," and repeated the warning already quoted above (Mark
9:42-47; Matt 18:9). In Matthew 10:28, cf. Luke 12:5, He told His
disciples to fear none but God, who alone is able to cast both
body and soul into Gehenna.
The last two occurrences are in Matthew 23, in our Lord's
vigorous denunciation of the Pharisees. In v.15, He accused them
of so indoctrinating any proselyte that they cause him to become
twice as much a child of Gehenna as themselves. The Hebraism
"child (or,'son') of Gehenna" means one fit for and doomed for
Gehenna. In v.33, He concluded: "You serpents, you brood of
vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"
The other NT writing;, although not using the word "Gehenna," use
equivalent expressions - of judgment, wrath, fire, destruction,
perdition, Tartarus, the lake of fire (q.v.)
There is evidence among the rabbis, both those of the strict
school of Shammai and the more liberal school of Hillel, of
beliefs that consignment to Gehenna will either result in
annihilation or will be purgatorial, and therefore will be
ultimately followed by blessedness. These beliefs are not
explicit in the NT.
BIBLIOGRAPHY. A. Edersheim. LT, 11 (1886), 791-796; BDB (1906),
161; SBK, IV (1928), 10291118; R. A. Stewart, Rabbinic Theology
(1961), 152-160;. NBD (l962), 390, 518. 519, 527; J. Jeremias in
TDNT, I (1964), 657, 658.
R. E. DAVIES
End Quote
Right, do you notice it. "Gehenna" was the fire dump of Jerusalem
- but also became the fire to destroy the dead criminals. So it
was used by Jesus to typology the final second death of fiery
destruction for sinners (who will not repent) as Revelation 20
shows us.
Now, what many do not see is that at the very last day, the day
that Jesus will return to fight His enemies at the battle of
Armageddon (Rev.16); the beast and false prophet are THROWN INTO
the lake of fire (Rev.19:19-20). these are literally two human
beings. They will be cast into a literal physical lake of fire -
the "gehenna" ONCE MORE of Jerusalem! Yes, yes, the very fire
that once was the "dump fire" of Jerusalem, will be again brought
into very being. Jesus, will have that "gehenna" fire of
Jerusalem established once more, and the first people into it,
alive the word says (a fitting punishment for such evil persons),
will be the "beast" man and the "false prophet." Their end will
not be like the men in the armies that come against Christ -
whose end is describes in Zechariah 14 - their flesh melting off
their bones. The "beast" and "false prophet" will be cast into
this lake of fire as it is re-established at Jerusalem, as in
days of old.
This is a good time to explain to you that sin shall at times
break out on earth during the 1,000 year reign of Christ and the
saints. Human nature is capable of sin, WITHOUT the Devil or
demons being involved. We can sin, we can rebel against God, with
no help from Satan or any demon. Sin - serious sin - unrepentant
sin - will not be at all common during the 1,000 years. Isaiah
was inspired to write that in that age there will be "This is the
way, walk you in it" correction for physical people of the earth
(see Isa.30:21 and all my expounding on the book of Isaiah). But
for those serious unrepentant sinners during that age .... well
see Isaiah 66:15-24 and note verse 24. Yes, capital punishment
during the 1,000 year age, will be death, and the bodies of those
dead will be cast into the "gehenna" fire once more at Jerusalem
- it will again be the fire dump of Jerusalem.
Now, it is at the END of the 1,000 year age that Satan will be
let loose, bring deception, a final battle. The Great age of the
White Throne Judgment, and then the SECOND DEATH! Those not found
in the book of life will be cast into the "gehenna" lake of fire
(Rev.20:14-15).
But revelation does not tell you what is next. God has written
some here and some there, you have to read, to search the
Scriptures .... it is found over in the book of 2 Peter.
"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count
slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any
should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the
day of the Lord will come (this is a different time of the "day
of the Lord" - as Peter goes on to tell us) as a thief in the
night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and
the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that
all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of person ought
you to be in all holy conduct and godliness. Looking for and
hasting unto the coming of the day of God (another time of the
day of God), wherein the heavens being on fire shall be
dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.
Nevertheless, we, according to His promise, look for a NEW heaven
and a NEW earth wherein dwells righteousness" (2 Peter 3:9-13).
Ah ah, do you see how we have put it all together in
chronological order? When all the verses are collected the
picture comes whole and is seen. Jesus on His coming re-
institutes the Jerusalem "gehenna" fire once more, the beast and
false prophet are thrown in at the beginning of the new age. The
fire of the Jerusalem dump burns during the 1,000 year age. All
serious unrepentant sinners during the age to come, face capital
punishment - death - they are then thrown into the "gehenna fire"
to burn up their bodies. At the end of it all - death waits for
the unrepentant sinner - they are cast into the lake of gehenna
fire. Satan and the demons are there also. They cannot be hurt by
physical fire. But they feel indeed tormented as they see that
sin will have an end; no more will they be able to deceive people
and encourage sin in human beings. What a torment indeed for
them.
The fire will engulf the entire earth, all physical things will
melt away, be gone. It is now time for the New heaven and the New
earth to come into existence. God the Father will come to earth
to be with His children, and we shall have Revelation 21 and 22
fulfilled.
It will also be the time for Jude 6 - the judgment of Satan and
the demons.
Whatever the final judgment is, we are told Satan will be
tormented .... for the ages of the ages - Revelation 20:10.
WHY I BELIEVE IT IS JUST FOR SATAN
TO BE PUNISHED TO THE AGES OF THE AGES
At the present writing (March 2010) I am watching the Canadian 30
hour production of "Canada - A People's History." It was done
about 10 years ago - the greatest work of the Canadian CBC
(English and French team-work) ever undertaken. The history is
all from records, diaries, people who lived and wrote in their
day. It was a research of many of Canada's best historians. This
is the story of how Canada came to be Canada, especially of
course from after the Vikings in 1,000 A.D. came, dwelt for a
while, and then left Canada.
What is (and always had been for all nations and Empires) most
SHOCKING is what humans have done to humans, not just one army of
men facing another army of men, and killing each other. But what
is brought out to the mind in all history, is the HORRIBLE,
gruesome, revolting, vile, hideous, nauseating, detestable, rank,
atrocious, monstrous, and UNSPEAKABLE brutality, that was done to
civilian men, women, and even children, as nations unfolded, as
people moved, set down roots, and as those average innocent
people tried to have "the good peaceful life." Some of the
deathly cruel ways that some were killed, I find too repulsive to
try and explain to you.
Satan the Devil and the demons have had a part in all the sins of
human kind. That is why on the Feast of Atonement the "goat"
selected for to be the goat sent off into the wilderness, had the
sins of all Israel put on his head. This is to show us that Satan
the Devil has a part in all sins. What he and the demons have
indirectly or even directly, put into the minds of human people
as to sin, and even as to HOW to sin, in the manner of sinning
... well only when you see in history brought to life, the
reality of it all begins to grab your heart and mind. And this
has been Satan and the demons' work for thousands of years on
this earth, and who knows for how long the rebellion against God
continued before God made man and woman (maybe millions, nay,
maybe billions of years).
I have to say it again, I think justice is done to torment Satan
for the ages of the ages.
Keith Hunt
March 2010
